Bill Arnold from Faith Radio Interviews Bill English about his book, A Christian Theology of Business Ownership.
Bill Arnold [00:00:23] All right. If you are a business owner, listen up. Maybe you’re looking for a fresh perspective. We want to make sure we align our role as an owner with biblical theology. And here to help us do that is Bill English is a very experienced entrepreneur, author, speaker and business advisor specializing in small business ownership issues. He’s got two master’s degrees, I think it was. Buy one, get one free kind of thing.
Bill English [00:00:51] No, it was not.
Bill Arnold [00:00:52] Okay. Well, I appreciate the twofer on that question that so we’ll talk about that a little bit later. But he’s written a book called Christian Theology of Business Ownership An Introduction for Christian Entrepreneurs and What the Bible Says About Owning a Business. Bill, welcome.
Bill English [00:01:08] Hey, it’s good to see you.
Bill Arnold [00:01:09] So how long has this book been ruminating in your head?
Bill English [00:01:12] Over five years.
Bill Arnold [00:01:13] Okay. All right, just start on a little napkin, a. Perkins or something.
Bill English [00:01:18] It started as as a blog back in 2011. I started blogging and and eventually the post started to connect and make sense. And that’s how I kind of.
Bill Arnold [00:01:27] Can you tell the listeners about your background. I gave you a little intro, but let’s hear more from you.
Bill English [00:01:32] Yeah, background real quick. MA and an MBA from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I worked as a psychologist. I’m still licensed here in the State. I did counseling for nine years and then left that and was in technology for about 12 years, 14 years, something like that. And during that time I learned how to write. I didn’t know how to write a book, but during that time I wrote 14 books, about half of them for Microsoft Press, for those in the I.T. space that was in the SharePoint and exchange areas that I wrote. I was a SharePoint MVP for 11 years with Microsoft and then got out of that and went into business consulting. I’m a partner right now with the platinum group. We do turnarounds, we do traditional M&A work, family business, succession planning, that kind of thing. Yeah. So that’s a little bit about my background.
Bill Arnold [00:02:19] Let’s jump to the book there. You know what? I as I paged through it and read it, it’s got tons and tons of great principles and lots of scripture. And that got my attention right away. So thank you for doing that. What is the what do you consider the overall message you’re trying to deliver with this book?
Bill English [00:02:35] I’m trying to deliver a transformative message to business owners and business leaders about their role as an owner or a leader. It’s not about this book is not about biblical principles to how to better run a business, God’s way kind of thing. That’s not this book. This book is not about, you know, if you follow these principles, you’re going to get rich. That’s not this book. This book is is about you as an owner. In your role as an owner, what is the Bible have to say about what you have to do to please God to steward what He has given to you and those kinds of things. So it’s really role based. And, and, and it’s, it’s a book that will speak directly to what you do during the day and how you handle yourself.
Bill Arnold [00:03:24] So, all right, let’s say I’m a business owner and I’m trying to do the best job I can. I want to follow the Lord. What is what why should I care about what’s in your book? I say that very nicely. Yeah. I mean there’s zillion books out there, right?
Bill English [00:03:39] Right there are. And, and, and and not a zillion readers, right?
Bill Arnold [00:03:43] Yeah.
Bill English [00:03:44] Yeah. So the reason you should care is because this book, more than any other that you’ll ever read, is going to talk about your relation, your stewardship, relationship with God, your covenant relationship with God, and how you as an owner can fulfill God’s purposes for business and get yourself ready to reign with Him in eternity. All you and I and everybody else listening who is a disciple of Jesus Christ were at one day going to die and we’re going to be in heaven with Jesus and we’re going to reign with him. It was like and and so this book is about how your role as a business owner is preparatory for reigning with Christ in heaven. Hmm.
Bill Arnold [00:04:27] I would imagine if this is in the bookstore, someone might be turned off by the word theology of business ownership. Yep. But let’s just talk about that a little bit. They they might think that that word is irrelevant or too much for them to understand.
Bill English [00:04:44] Well, people don’t want to read theology, right? They want to read something that’s practical. But theology done right is highly practical.
Bill Arnold [00:04:51] I agree completely. Yeah.
Bill English [00:04:54] So I realized that when we named the book, it was going to be a name that would not attract a lot of readers, but I bet it’s an accurate title. I was more interested in accuracy than in marketing. Yeah, so it is a theology, but it’s also just as much practical. So like for example, in the chapter on partnerships or in the chapter on receiving advice, I do go into what the Bible has to say about receiving advice or about partnerships, but then I also become highly practical about that as well.
Bill Arnold [00:05:26] On page 58, you have a title called The Deceitfulness of Wealth. Wealth can be highly deceitful. Would you say more about that?
Bill English [00:05:35] Yeah, wealth can be highly deceitful because at least in one senses, several senses. I talk about that in the book, but in one sense we tend to view the acquisition of wealth, the accumulation of wealth, the creation of wealth as being successful.
Bill Arnold [00:05:48] I agree.
Bill English [00:05:49] But creating wealth in and of itself doesn’t mean that God’s blessing is on you. There’s plenty of people that we can point to who have created lots of wealth, who never walked a day with God, even an hour with God. So you can create wealth without God. What you can’t do is be successful in the sense that I talk about him in the book fulfilling the for purposes of business and maybe we can get into that but products people up. Profits and philanthropy, fulfilling those the way that God looks at them in the Bible. And and and if you do those things, you’re going to be successful, whether you create a lot of wealth or not.
Bill Arnold [00:06:30] Bill English is my guest. He’s written a book called The Christian Theology of Business Ownership. And you just drop four big words project young people profit and you didn’t have a fourth P.
Bill English [00:06:39] No philanthropy or.
Bill Arnold [00:06:40] Philanthropy.
Bill English [00:06:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bill Arnold [00:06:43] All right. Maybe I could I couldn’t remember the fourth one and I didn’t think it was a P, but clearly it is.
Bill English [00:06:49] You know, I wasn’t going to say anything on air, you know.
Bill Arnold [00:06:51] Well, you could you can make fun of me.
Bill English [00:06:52] I don’t care. I’m never going to do that.
Bill Arnold [00:06:54] No, please do make me feel loved. All right. Let’s talk about product people, profit and philanthropy.
Bill English [00:07:00] Yeah. So products, I believe if you asked the question, why did God create business? How does the Bible answer that? Well, to my to my way of thinking, the first one is create a business so that we can create products and services that enable the community to flourish, that enable the church to advance. Right. So. When you’re making a product or offering a service that doesn’t enable the community to flourish, then you probably are in a place where you’re out of God’s will and you’re probably offering something that is sinful, quite frankly. So yeah, products thinking of people, business exists in part to help people develop their God given skills, their God given talent, some passions so that they become more of who he is. Business owners who don’t invest in their employees tend to not fulfill this purpose, God’s purpose for business. The third one is profits. Business has to be profitable in order to provide the community a sustainability, to provide the community stability, and to make it so that you can grow the business and employ more people and so that you can do the fourth thing, which is philanthropy. So you can give more money away and give that money away in such a way that you are helping to further the kingdom. Business done right well should produce a lot of wealth, but that wealth is owned by God. Not by me. Not by you. It is owned by God and we’re just stewards of that. Deuteronomy eight He says Moses says that it’s God who gives us the ability to create wealth. So when God gives us that ability to create wealth and we create it, it really belongs to him. So when we create lots of wealth, we go to God and we say, What do you want me to do with this wealth? And then we then we obey him.
Bill Arnold [00:08:51] I love it. Billy Bush is my guest and his book is A Christian Theology of Business Ownership. He brought three copies in that we can give out. So if you’d like to be one of those lucky people to get this book, if you’re a business owner or you’re a budding entrepreneur, you’re going to want to sign up for this one. Text the word book to 8779332484. Again, 8779332484. Bill, I love the Christian theology in the title because one chapter you’ve you talk on becoming free from the bondage of sin.
Bill English [00:09:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bill Arnold [00:09:28] Why should a Christian owner be concerned about becoming free from the bondage of sin?
Bill English [00:09:33] You know, the genesis of that chapter was actually Deuteronomy 27 and 28, where Moses goes over all of the things, the bad things that will happen to Israel if they sin and all the good things that will happen if they obey God’s laws. And so out of that, I took this notion that when we live in sin, we are automatically placing ourselves under curses. Now I realize this is theologically somewhat debatable across various viewpoints here, but my viewpoint on this is that just like God can send blessings on us, He also can send curses on us if we live in sin, especially if we are people who claim the name of Jesus Christ. So becoming free from the bondage of sin, it seems to me right after you accept Jesus Christ, the very next thing you need to do is to become free from the bondage of sin so that you are free to live in righteousness, to be the steward of what God gives you, to live in a covenant relationship with God that is intimate and loving and free flowing. Sin hinders all of that. So there’s there’s a lot of business owners who, quite frankly, are in bondage to send, whether it’s greed, whether it’s lust, you know, take any of the sexualities and all all in all I’m suggesting in the book is that if you really want to be the steward and you really want to conduct yourself the way God wants you to as an owner, you got to become free from the bondage of sand. That was, by the way, the hardest chapter for me to write, and I’ll be a little bit self disclosing here. I was sexually abused as a boy and it was a very difficult thing for me and that led to a lot of negative effects in my life for a long time. And it took me almost six months just to write that chapter because I couldn’t write it without first living it.
Bill Arnold [00:11:24] I’m sorry about that.
Bill English [00:11:25] Yeah.
Bill Arnold [00:11:26] All right. Let’s say you’re a business owner and you’re considering entering into a partnership. Mm hmm. What do you do?
Bill English [00:11:35] Get a partner agreement.
Bill Arnold [00:11:37] Oh, okay. I get a part. What kind of vetting should you be doing? Because it isn’t. That isn’t the partner process kind of to the feel good time. And we’re all excited about what the project is and. Or are we doing the hard vetting at this point?
Bill English [00:11:51] Yeah, we.
Bill Arnold [00:11:51] Are. Okay, good. We are same more.
Bill English [00:11:53] Yeah. We’re doing the hard vetting we’re looking at. We’re looking at the we’re looking at the partner or the potential partner or partners. And we’re saying, are these people I can be in a relationship with a professional business relationship. This is not the same as our covenant relationship with God and it’s not the same as a marriage. It is a legal relationship that has a beginning and a has an end. I’ve seen way too many Christians get into business together and they did it without having an agreement. Maybe they were family members that got together. Maybe they were just two friends that got together. But the result was when when the business went south or the relationship went south or expectations weren’t fulfilled or whatever it was, they didn’t have an agreement on how to get out. So I, I recommend that you really take time to get to know the other person you’re going to go into a partnership with and you get a competent lawyer and you draw up a partner agreement that specifies all of the potential negative scenarios that could happen, including divorce and bankruptcy and all those things. And how does the partnership handle each of those individually? You’ve got to have that. If you don’t, then walk away. Don’t do it.
Bill Arnold [00:13:05] So what about you’re already in a bad partnership and you’re a little panicked. What do you do?
Bill English [00:13:10] Oh, free or soft? Like a gazelle with Ryan, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Figure out how to get out of it or figure out how to get an agreement in place that makes it workable.
Bill Arnold [00:13:18] But if there’s a lot at stake and you’re getting ready to lose a lot, then what?
Bill English [00:13:22] You know, I guess you’re getting ready to lose a lot. Okay. You know, I don’t mean to be cold hearted on harsh about this, but there are times when people just make bad decisions and they get into situations that had they thought it through, they wouldn’t be in that situation. I don’t know what to say about. Yeah, you know, call a lawyer, talk it through with a lawyer, see what your legal options are. Yeah.
Bill Arnold [00:13:43] Bill English is my guest. His book is A Christian Theology of Business Ownership. He was nice enough to bring in three copies that I can give out. So if you want to be one of those lucky people in the drawing, all you have to do is text the word book to 877933. Two four. Paid for. We’ll take a short break and be right back with Bill English in just a minute. When you went into business, did you pray about it? Did you ask the Lord for his leading? You just jump in. What did you do? I’m always kind of curious to hear how people started their business. And did you partner with somebody? Did you get investors? The whole thing is fascinating to me. Yeah. Yeah. Now, one of your chapters, Bill Bill English is my guest and his book is called A Theology of Christian Business Ownership. You talk about the importance of receiving advice and becoming wise. I think that’s a very smart thing. And mentoring and gathering trusted advisers. Yeah. Yeah, that’s all wise.
Bill English [00:15:22] Yeah, it is. But they might be surprised at how many business owners don’t have a suite or a panel of trusted advisers to whom they go to on a regular basis to get advice. I’ve met more than my share of both Christian business owners and non-Christian business owners who might tell their banker one thing and their accountant another and their lawyer a third thing. And they really never let anybody else know all that’s going on in their business. And it’s it’s difficult to watch that because they usually stagnate at a certain level, revenue level or just customer base level. And they they never really get beyond that because they’re not listening to sage advice. And Proverbs tells us and I’m going to paraphrase Proverbs here, that when you have good advisors, you’re more apt to win the war. And I think that’s in Proverbs. That’s a paraphrase out of Proverbs either 23 or 24. And that’s the same thing for business owners. If they would open themselves up to sage advice from the right people at the right time, both about who they are as people and as owners as well as what to do and kind of decisions they should be making in their business. They are apt to go much, much farther than those who do not. And it’s just how the world works.
Bill Arnold [00:16:44] Yeah. Bill in addition to making bad decisions, you can also be getting bad advice, too.
Bill English [00:16:49] Oh, yeah.
Bill Arnold [00:16:49] Like Mr. Bezos, people are not going to want to shop online. That’s a bad idea.
Bill English [00:16:53] Yeah, bad idea. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there’s always naysayers for these really good ideas.
Bill Arnold [00:16:57] So how do you how do you use discernment in those situations?
Bill English [00:17:00] Well, you know, the is it and James, I’m going because I don’t have my book in front of me. But is it in James where it says the wisdom that comes from heaven as what it’s first of all, peaceable and loving and it goes through a whole list of things. And I, I walk through those those characteristics and you’ll find how how surprisingly often those characteristics apply to receiving advice. Usually, bad advice violates one or more of those elements in that list. From the Book of James.
Bill Arnold [00:17:29] Mm hmm. If a person comes to you and says, Bill, I want to go into business, I’m excited. I don’t care if I have to work 90 hours a week. What’s the first red flag that comes up in your mind?
Bill English [00:17:38] I don’t care that I have to work 90 hours a week. You’re going to sell your soul for your business, and at the end you’re going to have a business and nothing else. And you’re really be a very empty, vacuous person. You know, there are times when business owners work a lot of hours. I get that. But my first advice to somebody who wants to go into business is you have to be very good at something. You have to be competent at something enough so that the market is willing to pay you for whatever it is you produce or do. The second thing is that you have to know how to build alliances, and this comes back to getting advice. You have to know how to build alliances within your business with employees, with customers, partners, vendors, with the board, with your investors, with the community, that kind of thing. And then the third thing is you you have to have the character not to screw it all up. Mm hmm. And by that, I’m talking about, you have to be able to resolve conflict. You have to be able to build trust. You have to be able to show the right leadership at the right time. And I go over a number of those things in the book. So, you know, if you’re good at something and you know how to build alliances, great. There’s a lot of people who know how to do that. There’s not a lot of people who know how to do those two things and then yet don’t have the character or who have the character not to screw it all up. And that’s that’s where most business owners fail. It’s in the character area. Mm hmm. And so partly why I wrote the book was for that reason. Yeah.
Bill Arnold [00:19:06] So, Bill, how do you hear the voice of God when you’re saying, I want to start a business, I want to I want to take this business to the next level. Is it possible to hear the voice of God with all this?
Bill English [00:19:17] Yeah. Yeah. You know, how do we you know, if you wanna learn how to hear the voice of God, what I tell people to do is stop and pray and ask God who you should pray for today.
Bill Arnold [00:19:29] Yeah.
Bill English [00:19:29] Okay. Cause Satan isn’t going to give you a name. He doesn’t want you praying for anybody. And so whatever you hear in your head, and I don’t mean audibly here, but it’s like these the the message come to your mind. That’s the voice of God. And you can hear the voice of God on an everyday basis in decision making. When you’re in business and when you do that, you will make better decisions because you’ll be led by the Lord.
Bill Arnold [00:19:55] You know, I sometimes ask questions I know the answer to.
Bill English [00:19:58] Yeah, sort of. Why?
Bill Arnold [00:19:59] Well, I mean, because I think it makes for interesting discussion. Sure. You know, should you know, when I said do you can you hear the voice of God when you’re in business? And of course, I knew the answer was yes. Yes. I wasn’t just being silly. I was thinking, I want to hear from you as well. I don’t want I don’t want people to think, does Bill really think that?
Bill English [00:20:18] No. Yeah, I really think that.
Bill Arnold [00:20:19] Yeah, I know. I do, too. So. Absolutely, yeah. So tell me more about working through writing this book. Tell me another topic in the book that you struggled with and why.
Bill English [00:20:33] The the other part of the book that influenced me the most, that changed me the most. I didn’t struggle with it. It was an. Aha.
Bill Arnold [00:20:41] Oh, nice.
Bill English [00:20:41] And that was in chapter one when I really dug into what covenants are and how covenants are faithful, faithfulness, love. And I can’t think of the third word but that but they are at least faithfulness and love based. And when I realized that I didn’t have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as much as I had a covenantal relationship with God. And that and that it’s not about the emotion of feeling something from God that determines whether you’re mature. It’s really about your faithfulness to God and your commitment to Him. He is my God. He’s your God. He’s Rose’s God. He is our God. And we are his people. Right? And so in covenants, we don’t switch gods. You know, it’s Michael Heizer. We call this believing loyalty. You know, my God, I got him on many times. And I used I learned a lot from his material as I was writing this part about the covenants. But I also learned from Dr. Markowski, who I had a seminary, he wrote a book called The Covenants of Promise, and I thought that was a very, very helpful book for me. So now I live with a covenant relationship with God more than I live with a personal relationship with God. And please those out there, I’m not denying the personal ness of our relationship with God that is very biblical. It’s there. I believe it. I’m enhancing it and saying it’s bigger, broader, deeper front, back, side, side, top to bottom. If you look at it from a covenant theology rather than a salvific theology. Mm hmm.
Bill Arnold [00:22:17] So, Bill, if you are a Christian business owner, what counsel would you have for someone and their desire to have their faith and share their faith in their business?
Bill English [00:22:26] I would say be, no, this is me. And not everybody’s got to go with me here. Okay? Be very aware of the power imbalance of an owner with an employee. Just because you can share the gospel doesn’t mean you should. And I know that that’s almost heretical on this station, but you just have to be aware of the power imbalance. Your employees are going to sit there and listen to you and nod their head. And, yeah, you know, you’re right. And inwardly they might be going, This guy’s a jerk. I need to get out of this room. Right. Because they don’t have the power to say no to you as an owner. So live it first and then develop the relationships and the trust and the credibility sort of at the right time. If the Lord lead you, you can bring it up.
Bill Arnold [00:23:08] Mm hmm. And then what about dealing with customers in the secular world? Because you’re not just doing Christian in the Christian business.
Bill English [00:23:15] Yeah, same thing. Yeah, same thing. I, I know. I know there are people out there who view business as the evangelistic tool. I’m just not. I’m not there. Yeah, I’m not there. Okay.
Bill Arnold [00:23:27] Thanks for coming in. It’s been very great to see you again. And we used to be regular pals on the morning show. Yeah, I think the last time I saw you, it was quite early.
Bill English [00:23:35] Yeah, it was before 8:00.
Bill Arnold [00:23:37] This is such a civilized time, isn’t it? It is. Yes, it is. I can drink tea with our pinkie extended and just feel like a real gentleman in here. So I appreciate that. Bill English has been my guest. His book is A Christian Theology of Business Ownership, An Introduction for Christian Entrepreneurs and What the Bible Says About Owning a business. And he brought in three copies and said What the listeners have them. So here they are. All you have to do is text the word book. We’ve got a whole bunch of people that want in on this. So 877933248478779332484. Bill, thanks for being here.
Bill English [00:24:16] Hey, thanks for having me on.
Bill Arnold [00:24:17] Yeah. Yeah. Well, we’re going to take a little break. That is now the conclusion of our one but hour to get ready. As my friend Jeff for Dawn is going to be here. We’re going to talk about the wounds of Jesus, and I’m just going to leave it at that. That’s the tease you’re not going to want to miss this hour. He gave me a little head’s up about it. And I am fascinated and I can’t wait to share this hour with you. So get a new cup of tea or coffee or something cool to drink because it is like 114 right now. And get ready for a full hour with Jeff for dawn as we study the wounds of Jesus. Be right back. Thanks for listening. Programing like this is made available through your support information available at My Faith Radio.com.