This episode is part of the Bible and Business series on Christian Ethics for Christian Business Owners. This episode was broadcast on October 18, 2023 on @myfaithradio with @carmenlaberge @connectFaithfr. In this episode, Bill English, Publisher of Bible and Business and Carmen Laberge talk about hearing God’s voice in ethical decision-making.
Carmen LaBerge
All right, the plan is that our friend Bill English from Bibleandbusiness.com is joining us right now. Let’s see how’s our plan working out.
Speaker 2
The plan is working out fine, Carmen. Hey.
Carmen LaBerge
Good morning, Bill.
Speaker 2
Well, good morning.
Carmen LaBerge
Have you ever had one of those, the plan is the plan has changed kind of days?
Speaker 2
Most of my days go like that. I think I average between 24 and 28 appointments a week or meetings a week. And yesterday I had six of them lined up, and four of them either moved or canceled for whatever reason.
Carmen LaBerge
All right, four. Let’s see. Yesterday was Tuesday. I don’t know if you only had four on Tuesday, are you on track to have 24 to 28 in a week? I don’t know.
Speaker 2
I had six scheduled and four of them moved or canceled or whatever.
Carmen LaBerge
Okay. Yeah, your average has to be pretty high every day if you’re going to have 24 to 28 meetings a week. I don’t know. That’s a lot. It seems like a lot.
Speaker 2
It is a lot, and I don’t wear it as a badge of honor.
Carmen LaBerge
I’ll put it that way. It’s blue. It’s a ribbon. It’s like an award ribbon. It’s hanging right here next to my desk, and it says, I survived another meeting. That should have been an email. And periodically I move that award. I give myself that award periodically when I have to attend a meeting. That should have been an email. Yeah, go ahead and confess that. I’m confessing that right now.
Speaker 2
Are you? Well, thank you for doing that.
Carmen LaBerge
All right. I’m so glad you’re here. Let’s talk about hearing the voice of God while in the midst of making an ethical decision. So this is something you’ve got posted@bibleandbusiness.com. So if you’re listening right now, you can check out Bill’s entire piece on this, hearing the voice of God in ethical decision making. So I want to hear the voice of God in all of my decision making, but particularly when I am making a quote unquote, ethical decision. So can you talk about decisions in general and then how we hear the voice of God in the midst of making a decision that does require an ethical choice?
Speaker 2
Yeah. So this article was written as part of a larger series on ethics, as you know, and I landed as a starting point on ethics of the two great commands love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. And that would be the starting point for all ethical decisions. And then the Ten Commandments will kind of flesh that out a little bit. So for a matrix of making ethical decisions, it was those two commands, and the second tier was the Ten Commandments. But I also didn’t want ethical decision making for a Christian to be strictly an intellectual matrix. Right. And so the scriptures have just a truckload to say about hearing the voice of god. And so I didn’t want ethical decision making to be merely an intellectual exercise. I also think it’s a dynamic spiritual activity where God speaks through his commands, speaks through the Scriptures, and applies them in very unique ways to a person’s given situation and helps the person understand God’s heart as well as God’s mind when it comes to making difficult decisions in ethical situations. So your second question was, can we hear the voice of God?
Speaker 2
My short answer is yes. The longer answer is in the article, but God has an audible voice. But the Scriptures talk a lot more about his inaudible voice. So for example, in Psalm 19, the heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his work. This is the ESV. Day to day pours out speech. Night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech. There are no words whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth and their words to the end of the world. So clearly, the heavens are speaking to us, but it’s not an audible voice. Another scripture here from Romans 119 and 20, since what may be known about God is plain to them, them as our people who don’t believe in God, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world, god’s invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen being understood from what has been made. So the people are without excuse. Again, God is communicating about his eternal power and divine nature through the physical creation, right? But it’s not an audible voice. But it is a voice that can be heard, and it is a voice that is discernible.
Speaker 2
And so can Christians hear God’s voice? And obviously to me, the answer is yes. And that is a voice that when our spirits are regenerated, we can learn to hear what the Spirit says. And if I can just go to John 16, I don’t know if I have time before you want to do the break?
Carmen LaBerge
Sure, go ahead. Man absolutely.
Speaker 2
But in John 16, Christ is talking to his disciples, right? And he says this. He says, I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear, but when the Spirit of truth comes, the Spirit will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own. He will only speak what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. And he’ll glorify me, because it is from me that he will receive, and he will make known to you. The Spirit will receive from me, and he will make it known to you. Again, that’s not an audible voice that the Spirit uses, right? But the Spirit does talk to us, and he does let us know what is on God’s mind and in God’s heart. It’s a spiritual activity. It’s not bonkersness. It’s not hallucinations. It’s not delusions. It is a spiritual activity that only disciples of Jesus Christ will really understand.
Carmen LaBerge
Yeah, that is so good. The reality that God speaks through creation, so there’s plenty of evidence. God speaks specifically in the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. He speaks through the person and the work of Jesus. And we bring all of that to bear as we seek to hear God with ears that hear and minds that understand. Because I do think there’s this huge difference between saying that I want to hear God and actually listening, actually listening with ears that hear and then with a willingness to be brought into conformity with his will. Just to get my own will out of the way is sometimes very difficult. When we hear God, particularly when there’s an ethical decision to be made and we know we perceive what the will of God is, we just are resistant in terms of being obedient to it. So that’s probably the second part. Hearing the voice of God in an ethical decision and then actually obeying it. Like obedience is the right and righteous response to hearing the voice of God.
Speaker 2
The more we humble ourselves before the Lord, the more we will hear his voice, the more we lift ourselves up, the more confused and the more noisy the spiritual world will become.
Carmen LaBerge
Amen. Amen. All right, we’re going to continue our conversation with Bill English here in just a moment. Bibleandbusiness.com. That is the website where you can not just read this particular piece on hearing the voice of God in an ethical decision, but the series on that as well, and tons of other great resources, including Bill’s books. When we come back, we’re going to talk about something that is happening in the culture. In several states across the country, there are laws being changed in order to allow churches and other houses of worship to use their property in creative ways to help those who are unhoused. So how are churches engaging with homelessness across the country? And how are states setting aside laws to allow houses of worship to use their property in creative ways? That’s up next here on Mornings with Carmen.
Speaker 3
Thanks so much for listening to Mornings with Carmen LABURGE. Hey, I’m Susie Larson. Hey, if you enjoy what you’re listening to here, would you consider subscribing to other great Faith Radio podcasts like mine? Search, Susie Larson Live@myfaithradio.com, or wherever you listen to podcasts, hit subscribe, and have a great day.
Carmen LaBerge
Our friend Bill English from Bibleandbusiness.com is here with us today. Bill, in places across the country as diverse as Minnesota and California and some other places as well. Obviously, homelessness is a terrible issue. It’s growing just so many people are unhoused. And there are churches and other houses of worship with all kinds of property in the vicinity of folks who are homeless. So what are some creative things that states are doing to allow folks of goodwill to use those properties in ways that serve the most needy in their communities.
Speaker 2
Yeah. So both California and Minnesota have passed laws that allow churches to bypass most zoning ordinance, local zoning ordinances, if they choose to put up what are called tiny homes or build tiny home villages on their properties to house the homeless. And the thought is that these tiny homes will get the homeless people off the street, that it is more humane for them to be in a tiny home rather than sleeping on a street or in some dumpy car somewhere. And the idea is that once they’re in the tiny homes, then county case workers can work with them to help them find permanent housing. Right. On the face of it, what I like about this on the face of it, is that the churches are starting to step up and say homelessness isn’t just a government societal problem that needs to be solved. We think we can be part of the solution. And if there’s any kind of common criticism I’ve had for evangelicals nationwide, it is that we have abandoned in many situations dealing with the poor because we know the government will step in and do it, so we’re let off the hook.
Speaker 2
Right. And what I like about this is that evangelicals can start to engage in meaningful ways. The other side of this is that some say it sustains homelessness. It does not really solve anything. The tiny homes are not the same as affordable housing, which, especially in California, there’s just a huge problem of getting affordable housing for people, and that these tiny homes oftentimes don’t come with plumbing, they don’t come with electric, they don’t come with any trash removal, they don’t come with any furniture. And so what are you really doing for them? Well, you’re putting a roof over their head. But then the churches are having to open up common areas of their churches on a 24 x seven basis to give these homeless folks a place to use the bathroom, maybe to take a sponge bath, to use the kitchen so they can prepare meals and that kind of stuff. So I think the tiny homes, from what I could see when I looked at it, Carmen, I was looking at it as a transitional piece. We can get people into these tiny homes. Churches can build them. But in the long run, getting people into meaningful work where they are self sustaining with permanent housing and their mental health issues are taken care of.
Speaker 2
Maybe family relationship issues are taken care of and they’re becoming a contributing member of society. I think that’s a much larger solution than just building some tiny homes on a church parking lot.
Carmen LaBerge
Mayfield, Kentucky. Nashville, Tennessee. Tacoma, Washington. San Francisco. El Cajon, California. St. Paul, Minnesota. Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
Speaker 2
Yeah, it’s all over.
Carmen LaBerge
Yeah, this is happening in places all over the country. So if you’re listening right now and you’re saying to yourself, hey, I know that my community is facing this challenge. I see unhoused people. I’m concerned about this. I also recognize that there are churches in my community with in proximity to people who are unhoused. This is the other part of this, right? It needs to be a church campus that’s already in proximity to where people who are unhoused are choosing to live. And that is a difficult intersection of reality. And so just think for a moment where you see where you encounter unhoused people in your community, in your city. And then I want you to think about a physical church campus that is geographically proximate already. Do they have a parking lot? Do they have an old ball field? Do they have a portion of land that doesn’t have something sitting on it already? And could that be a tiny home village? Transitional? Again, as Bill says, I mean we’re talking about something that is designed to be transitional. It’s not designed to be permanent. And in fact, even the suspension of zoning laws is not permanent.
Carmen LaBerge
Most of these laws have sunset clauses. Even the laws themselves are not designed or indicate that this is not designed to be a permanent solution. Yes, Bill? Did I lose him?
Speaker 2
You know what the audio just cut.
Carmen LaBerge
Out there for like well that’s okay. I was just agreeing with you and reaffirming that this is not designed to be a permanent solution, evidenced by the fact that even these laws are designed to sunset.
Speaker 2
But I appreciate the heart behind the laws and I appreciate the effort. And this is what for all my politically conservative friends out there, this is what states do. They experiment with proposed solutions and they find out what works and what doesn’t. So hats off to some of these politicians for thinking outside the box and trying something new. I suspect there’s going to be unforeseen collateral issues that crop up that we’ll learn from. But I’m glad people are taking a step in this direction and let’s see how it goes.
Carmen LaBerge
I remember a conversation that we had with a church or a ministry in Texas related to this as well. So yes, thank you to the person who said, didn’t you talk about something like this with some ministry in Texas? Yes, fishes and Loaves maybe was the name of it. Tiny house community in Texas, which is designed to also offer recovery, be a recovery community. This also links back for those of you who’ve been listening this morning. This links back to the conversation that we had earlier with Jeff Bilbrough about living in intentional community, the Co housing movement. How might a tiny house community on an empty piece of church property become an experiment of what it looks like to live in community with other people? Maybe a recovery environment where then from there folks could maybe live in community in a house, in a neighborhood and then from there live even more independently. I don’t know. There’s all kinds of ways to move folks along, a process from being unhoused and homeless with whatever constellation of challenges they’re facing, to a life that is free from all of that. And free, indeed, in Christ. So, Bill, as always, man, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2
Oh, you’re welcome. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
Carmen LaBerge
Absolutely. Transformational change. Have you found something that is like a lever for transformational change in your life? Have you heard of silent walking? I mean, first of all, silent walking just means, like, walking in silence. And we used to do it all the time. We used to do it all the time before 2007 when everyone ended up with a quote unquote, smartphone in their hand that made us all dumb. Before the era of the ipod, before we thought you should always have noise in your ears all the time, everywhere. Before the advent this is a little self defeating here, but before the advent of listening to things all the time everywhere, like podcasts, we did a lot of silent walking. The history of the world is a history of people walking silently from place to place. So silent walking, there’s actually a movement among Gen Z. It was inspired by a TikTok influencer who says that this is an unintentionally started movement. She didn’t intentionally start this movement, but she was just sharing how walking silently had changed her life and how walking with no distractions, no air pods, no podcasts, no music, just me, myself and I, is what she says.
Carmen LaBerge
Now. I would say walking silently in the presence of the Lord changed her life. Getting to a place of quiet and silence changed her life. How far did you walk yesterday? How many steps did you take? You probably have a step tracker. Are you walking silently with the Lord? Are you walking every step with Jesus? Are you walking with God in the cool of the day? Do you recognize that Jesus is walking with you in the wilderness or in the desolate place where you find yourself? Maybe you’re walking through the valley of the shadow of death. Do you recognize that he is with you? Are you walking with Jesus? Think of all the places that Jesus walked and all the conversations he had with people along the way. What would it look like to spend some silent walking time today with the Lord? Jeff Allen is going to join us next, and I happen to know that silence is something that he genuinely values. I’ve heard him talk about how the enemy uses ambient light and endless noise to wipe away God’s influence in our lives. You may know Jeff Allen as a Christian comedian, and he’s going to join us next to just talk about his experience of dramatic transformation.
Carmen LaBerge
That’s up next. You’re on Mornings with Carmen.